Ghostbusters II - In Defense of the Sequel: Bill Murray Strikes Back

Fasten your proton packs and prepared to be slimed as Cory and Nick dissect the underappreciated sequel, "Ghostbusters II." On this minisode, in anticipation(?) of Ghostbusters: Frozen Kingdom, we peel back the curtain on the fall from grace of our beloved specter-hunters, reflecting the actors' own real-life arcs as Cory states his case to Nick of why this sequel is superior to the 1984 original (which Nick disagrees with). With sharp insights and a few laughs, we reveal how the sequel's narrative cleverly dances with the decade's cultural heartbeat, connecting dots that only a true fan—or a keen new viewer—could spot.

End your ghost-hunting expedition with a debate that has echoed through the ages: Can the sequel's soundtrack possibly outshine Ray Parker Jr.'s iconic anthem? As we weigh the cultural clout and chart-topping triumphs of both tunes, we also consider the underappreciated depths of "Ghostbusters II." We salute Bill Murray's enigmatic approach to life that bleeds into every role, from zany paranormal investigator to the reflective characters he portrays in later films. With spirits high and PKE meters off the charts, we close the trap on an episode that's as much about the phenomenon of Ghostbusters as it is a toast to Murray's indelible mark on the silver screen.

Thanks for listening; If you feel like supporting us, this is where you do that!
BuyMeACoffee

Check out or other content/socials here.
Linktree

Hosts:
Cory Williams (@thelionfire)
Nick Growall (@nickgrowall)

Co-Hosts (Season 5):
Aly Dale (@alydale55)
Ash Hurry (@filmexplorationah)
Cass Elliott (@take5cass)

Voice of the Time Machine:
Kristi Rothrock (@letzshake)

Editing by:
Nick Growall

Featured Music:
"Quantum Recast Theme" - Cory Williams
"Charmer" - Coat
"Revival" - Daniele Musto
"Pukka" - Bellodrone
"Kings and Queens" - Wicked Cinema
"Kiss the Cat" - Al Town
"Birdcage" - Al Town
"Passenger" - Abloom

*Music and licenses through Soundstripe

Transcript

Speaker 2: 0:01

1989 Episode of quantum read that we're here with.

Speaker 1: 0:42

Generally not not well loved. Yeah, you know, it's admiral, your defense. Really, most of the time that's Frozen. But yeah, yeah, after life was the one that came out a couple years ago. This is the one that comes out on March 22, basically, for some reason, the Ghostbusters went to Oklahoma. Yeah, it doesn't look like Oklahoma at all. And then, yeah, the I'm gonna have to remember names very quickly here, but oh, egon moved out there and like, lived in a mansion, was crazy and like his grandkids Find his Ghostbusters stuff like it's, it's Force Awakens, but with Ghostbusters they find the mobile. They're like, oh my gosh, like the and everything. It's literally beat for beat the, the Force Awakens trailer. So If you, in case you guys are wondering what the tone is right now, we have yes, I believe we took it to 2005 or so had some fun with the comedy people. Yeah, you, you have made that assertion. Yes, correct, so five-year gap. Going on, corey, he, he, because he tried to make his own movie. It didn't do well, the Razor's Edge, and then the popularity of Ghostbusters was so big that he was just like I'm out because he's Bill Murray and he just does stuff like that. And then his first movie back actually was Scrooge. And then, and in the meantime, all the Writing like it was just a because, like I guess they wanted a big budget thing and then, but the some of the producers didn't want that and then right men was in arguments and I guess the Ghostbusters themselves had some personal issues and they had to have like a sit-down, come to Jesus dinner where they were like, okay, yeah, we can get along with each other, we can make it's fun to make, because Bill Murray quoted it. He's saying like making Ghostbusters one was one of the most fun times he's ever had on a set. He was yeah, yeah, and then it was really wasn't till the night, late 90s, 2000s. Yeah, he's like I found my muse and his name is Bill Murray, if he shows up on time to set.

Speaker 2: 3:10

I.

Speaker 1: 3:15

Know the code. He's cracked it. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, john Belushi Do a very serious movie there for a minute and like they all did it and then they all yeah, I feel like the only ones that were successful, at least in that group's. Like Steve Morton found his, it was more like he just did family Dramas and stuff, like he never was like a serious, serious actor. That's right. Yeah, okay, right, right, right, he had some failed movies, is what I read. Yeah, is that the one where it's like a dinner party and they're all dying or something?

Speaker 2: 4:40

Okay, okay.

Speaker 1: 4:52

Come on, buddy, let's get the gang back together. It is you will be defending this one or some of the other ones we were like well, actually they're kind of like par for par, and this one, this one, I feel like you genuine, this is like not interesting. Okay, well, I lean the other way. So this will be, this will be an interesting conversation. Well, you know, okay, all right, I'm taking some loblos here. I see how we're going. There's plenty that's famous name. One thing that's famous about the second one.

Speaker 2: 5:32

The ghostbusters with the stars. Nothing overshadows them like the state of marshmallow man the state bus.

Speaker 1: 5:37

Marshmallow, the stay puffed. Marshmallow. Man was not overpowered. Who didn't outshine the ghostbusters just as much as slimer didn't outshine the ghostbusters Because he wasn't 100 feet tall.

Speaker 2: 5:56

Yeah, okay, that's.

Speaker 1: 6:01

There we go. He's a ghost, he's just a gross creature. You know, he's like that roommate you have that, just doesn't clean up after themselves, you know, doesn't do the dishes Okay.

Speaker 2: 6:22

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1: 6:24

Just basically like we need a powerful entity to describe something we can't control. Slime Nickelodeon yeah, that's true. That's true, it's an underground thing now it's illegal in 24 states. There's also the stuff Cory, it's not Popular trying to think of. If anything predates it at 89, can't think of anything. So no, plenty of things that there's literally a theme song. It made all those guys household names and then they made them real overnight names. Herald Ramis Was like well, I guess I'll act in this.

Speaker 2: 7:35

Yeah hey, wait, it was fun.

Speaker 1: 7:37

We like him. I Don't know if they belong in this what he called the circle chart, where it's like they cross over the Venn diagram. I don't know what Venn diagram. Well, I don't think Egon or or a hero. Ramis sounds like Kermit the frog, though that's the only Ray Mermano, right, right, you know I would watch it. I would be interested to see a Herald Ramis sitcom built around him. Well, cory, before we dive into the information about these two movies, we did recast the original in 2004. Not saying that we back in 2004, we casted that. We took it to 2004, probably. Hey, it's clean, cory, it's clean Interesting. You'll have to hit play to find out, cory.

Speaker 2: 8:46

We have stats.

Speaker 1: 8:48

We do. I got stats for both of them. We're going to do a comparison. We're going to cheat. You're going to cheat here. Well, you know you're starting to low blow. So I have to return in kind, corey, and I'm just stating facts. Corey, this is just what's on here. All right, I didn't change these things. So the original Ghostbusters released in 1984. Rotten Tomatoes gives it a 95. Black Score 88. A fan score IMDb 7.8, meta 71 and 8.4 for the audience. Letterbox has a 3.8. You and I you gave it a 3. I gave it a 4 out of 5. The budget was 25 to 30 million, made 295 million. So for Ghostbusters, 2. That's like a B plus. Like a B plus and what? Like an.

Speaker 2: 9:38

F yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 9:41

It's doing. Well, you know it's not going to be making any like top 10 class things or anything like that, but it's passing, it's respectable. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I don't know Ghost dad, I don't know. Well, ghost dad was Bill Cosby and then Mr Chicken is yeah, that's Don Knotts. Oh, that's right. Yeah, why did he make so many stupid movies? Hey, let's just put Don Knotts as. What if Don Knotts was? He's like the. You know what he is. He's the classic Rob Schneider Don Knotts. Oh yeah, oh yeah, we got to take it back now to like the 64 or 65. Now you just got the wheels spinning. Corey Ghost Andy. All right Back on track, back on track. Ghostbusters 2. So Corey, prepare to be hurt. Okay, rotten Tomatoes for Ghostbusters 2, released in 1989, of a critic score of 55. Audience score 61. Imdb 6.6. Metacritic 50 with a 7.0 audience score. So that's better, it's better, it's better. 3.1. That's fairly. That's still a True. I mean, yeah, if you're rounding, get rounded down, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. You gave it a four stars and after rewatching it I gave it a three, so I bumped it. I did bump up half a star. There's a little more appreciation this time around and we could discuss that here.

Speaker 2: 11:24

A second, because listen, here's the reason I did it, Because everything is registered. So if I was just guessing they don't like.

Speaker 1: 11:33

I mean you're right, yeah, oh yeah. Cinefiles hate it. I thought the cinefiles were like. I thought this was made for cinefiles. It's Denny Villanueva or whatever. He said yeah, but it's Dune. It's like the nerdiest of IPs, Corey.

Speaker 2: 11:57

He did.

Speaker 1: 11:58

Blade Runner. So they're mad that he chose a different IP at this point. Blade.

Speaker 2: 12:06

Runner is like Because it's a bad movie, they love it. Because it's a bad movie, that looks good. It's an unwatchable, boring thing that Rucker Howard carries on his epic German shoulders.

Speaker 1: 12:22

The strong oak German shoulders.

Speaker 2: 12:26

Oh my gosh, that part of the movie is like one great line that he adds with it's not really Scott or anyone else. I guess I'll throw a bad-ass line in here.

Speaker 1: 12:35

So we will probably not ever be doing Blade Runner, at least with Corey in the room, I mean. But that's usually when we have the most fun.

Speaker 2: 12:44

So, anyways, I've read a lot of.

Speaker 1: 12:50

Interesting. We made the pasting of Chalabase's of this. Oh my gosh, that's ridiculous. To finish up info, the Sex sequel had a budget of $30-40 million, so a little bit more, and then the box office was only $250 million. So not as big as Ghostbusters, but still respectable. No flop here. So, ebert, roger Ebert now, corey, are you ready for this? He gives the original Ghostbusters 3.5 stars. His main comment was this movie is an exception to the general rule that big special effects can wreck a comedy. So basically saying that in most big effects movies the actors are more having to adjust to the special effects or whatever's going on. And this one, the original, it felt like it wasn't hindering the performances. So for the sequel, thanks to some deep research that Corey did here, it was given two stars. It's not even on the website.

Speaker 2: 13:50

I'm trying to scan of the Chicago.

Speaker 1: 13:58

Is there any main quote from it that you can read on that scan? He said about it hate sequels.

Speaker 2: 14:03

It's all it is. I hate.

Speaker 1: 14:10

Well, okay, oh, he had a week.

Speaker 2: 14:14

Hey, we want to get contact here.

Speaker 1: 14:15

Two sequels he gave 3.5 stars for a plastic save it was his favorite, but the most universally.

Speaker 2: 14:22

quite bad.

Speaker 1: 14:23

But out of the trilogy. Everyone did not like that. It was panned. That's weird. It's the one they didn't like, the original. And then we go like and he gave Ghostbusters 2. Wow.

Speaker 2: 14:38

We want some real contact. This week's pick is he did this post-party in Patman and Honey.

Speaker 1: 14:44

I Shrugged this. All came out the same week, all the same article. He just did a fan. He must be going through it. Maybe one day we'll read his biography or something and really get to know the man he's got it oh. I guess we should. We'll do a whole episode about it.

Speaker 2: 15:02

So, dear diary, really like Really like related to Cisco had to walk him off the ledge.

Speaker 1: 15:42

I mean, I mean yes and no. I feel like it's yes and no, right, well, that's the thing now to just dive into it. I think that's the thing picking up this time, especially like yes, it's very much a sequel. Your every sequel is a cash grab. We'll just start off right there, yeah, but it, but they. But they seem to kind of lean into that a little bit, especially when you think about the beginning, when it's like clearly, like the main, the rest of the Ghostbusters are broke. Bill Murray's character is like has this TV show he's popular, like he's he's a loof from the rest of the group, and so like it's almost like they're playing on real life a little bit there, and then like them happy to come back and it's in the idea that's yeah, it's been five years, everybody forgot about you. We moved on to Indiana Jones and Batman, so. So I think they were smart to kind of play into that a little bit, but not to the point where it's like wink, wink, nudge, nudge to meta, where it's like OK, I see what this is. Now I think you have to defend it to be.

Speaker 2: 16:45

Yeah, I don't understand how people this is seriously I don't know. I think it's just the color. Ok, I don't think it like finishes and don't think like you do, and I like how it starts.

Speaker 1: 16:59

I like that the world? Yeah, like what the incredible Mm? Hmm, like three, 40 days for over. People are mad at it now because, because they're mad at it Because it's New York yeah, you mean, they did their jobs so well. There's no longer a ghost problem in New York. Screw those guys Right. I'm like my. My uncle's cousin was a rat. You dirty bastard.

Speaker 2: 17:39

So I like that Like kind of like where it's like what Harold's doing science?

Speaker 1: 17:47

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Experimenting no, not really he's. He's a nerd, he's a gym rat. In terms of science terms, he's literally just I'm going to keep studying stuff, and that's what he's doing in the movie.

Speaker 2: 18:05

Right, we want he man.

Speaker 1: 18:07

Exactly, and then Bill Murray's doing a talk show about, about fake ghost yeah.

Speaker 2: 18:13

And so I just like opening up, but I also like the last person you see put on a yeah, the last one, well, it's him, or it's a what's his name?

Speaker 1: 18:32

Rick Moranis is Lewis. Because he's not a ghostbuster. Yeah, he puts on, he puts on the suit Corey, and he's there at the end he's going to go back, are you telling me? Listen? Bill Murray should have been a space jam and saved the human and loony tune race. Does he not count as a member of the of the soon squad?

Speaker 2: 18:51

Yeah, yeah, right, right, right.

Speaker 1: 18:58

And so it's like I wonder if oh, it's a little throwback Rick Moranis Ghostbusters suit, when he's getting, when he's trying it on with the secretary, he is wearing. Nope, it's a two, it's an update, it's just, it's a backup Spengler. He did not. That's you mean short? Oh, Harold Ramis is still. Yeah, oh, by far. Yeah, this just fits perfectly fine. New pay Harold had a growth spurt in five years. He just washed it. She was prepared. She's like I know what you need. He put this on. That's the other thing. Yeah, with any pots which you need, melnitz. I don't like it. It's fun. Well, was it her and Harold Weren't her and Egon like a thing. In the first one they were like make it out behind the desk and stuff. I'm pretty sure there's a scene where they they're making he's under the desk, he's a man, well listen, he's a man. He's a man, well listen, any pots Jeanine? Yeah, that's fair. Sure, she found a guy who had no science and just put it pro to proton pack on him Wildly. Not think he is a horny accountant. Both movies. On all accounts he's a horny man. It's just coasting. It's a lot of. It's a lot of speed dating, swiping left or right in modern times. But that's the things. Like there's. There are those thing about this movie, I think. And then that's the five year gap issue, like we talked about in some previous, in defense of the sequels. You know, you've, you know Adam's family home alone. They tried a third sequel but it was like way after the fact None of the cast was really available or like they had passed away and so like the magic was gone and I feel like Ghostbusters, I think, because it was still in the 80s and the first one was in mid 80s when you really hit peak 80s and then you don't really lose the 80s until grunge shows up. But I think that there was enough of like the filmmaking look and aesthetic that was still there. We had advanced because, like the 90s goes through a lot of shifts, from early 90s to late 90s, you know. So a lot of those movies we've talked about like they just wouldn't, they wouldn't work, like the teams were in there. So I feel like they had just enough of the connective tissue in terms of production and crew and cast to make it work. I think had you waited any longer it wouldn't have worked, it would have felt out of place in like an early 90s or like it just would have felt too long. And I think that that is kind of the good thing that they did acknowledge like the time jump, because we're talking about a world, the early 80s, where Star Wars just wrapped up in the early in 83. And so they had and those were all continuity, like one led to the other, led to the other, this one, there is connective tissue, like with Sigourney's character and Bill Murray's characters having a woolly, won't they still? But beyond that it's really just like we were popular, then we got out of business and it's been five years and we're making ends meet, kind of thing, like there's not, there's not a villain or some small seed from the first one that's leading into this, and so maybe that's why some people feel like it's more like a cash grab or like the villain kind of comes from nowhere. But I do like the idea, like with the new frozen empire, that the villain is something different, because the afterlife movie was just oh yeah, remember Zool, they're in this movie again. Basically, so you're like okay, whatever, like yes, it's cool to see like an updated, graphically cool version of that character. But I like, apparently the director like is leaning into like the animated series where it was like a monster of the week kind of concept. So he's like I wanted to get into the weird stuff. So I guess the Carpathian is like we're going to try something different, yeah, so I would say that, well, the Zool was just kind of like unexisting, like we didn't even see them until the end of the movie. I'm saying, right, zool, right, that's who there is. No, there's no, only Zool, right, yeah, yeah, right, the key master, yeah, ghostbusters, zool, yeah, I'm right, okay, just checking. Okay, well, you have to, it's all tied around her. Do you think security weavers? Like her character is like the, the connective glue to all these ghosts and stuff, it's possible she's connected to one comes out the gate to hell, comes out of her fridge no, no, not at all. Yeah, they no acknowledgement of her as far as I know, as far as I could remember she, there's no acknowledgement of her. But Dana, yeah, dana bear, it's her character. She might be the key to all this. She needs to get out of New York. Corey, she's a menace, her and her child. Yeah, yeah, that's Right, she's keeping them in business, her and bill, it's. It's kind of like the end. What was that Will Smith movie where he was this Hancock, where him and Charlie's there, like they have to stay apart or else like bad things happen, that's they have to. It's the opposite. These two have to stay together so there's more ghosts so they could hunt them.

Speaker 2: 24:33

Right.

Speaker 1: 24:36

Okay, yeah. I like it's been five years yeah yeah yeah, they do you. Just, we just watched it. They kissed there's, there's no. After credits, like description, like turns out Dana and Peter. We got married but divorced five years later. I mean, it's back in New York, so we'll, we don't know. Maybe one of those kids is Dana Barrett's kid what was it? Oscar, what a terrible 80s name He'd be. He'd be almost 40 days, like 30, 35. Yeah, he'd be 35. Yeah, okay, okay, no, not at all. You can't. With Paul Rudd, though, that's like the most over-the-top, the over. That's like one of the the more over-the-top performances in the whole thing. So you're European and you're bad and you're following. Okay, got it. Oh, okay, that's cool. See my thing, the Garpatheon Vigo, he, he didn't do it for me was on the first watch for sure. The, I think. I think I liked the concept of Zool because it was very much. It's the whole Indiana Jones, when it's done right thing of like there's this threat, there's this evil. We speak of the entity, we speak of the evil and we're only getting a glimpse of it at the end. Like we see Zool and like there and then they take the form of the Stay Puff Marshmallow man. But it was all a build up to the end, like and we kind of already saw Vigo, so I think that was kind of the thing that was. It was off for me a little bit, didn't connect with me as much, yeah, but then. But then he comes out and he's just, he's there. You mean that there's not another Stay Puffs Marshmallow man lying around. But counterpoint is Thanos. You see glimpses, you keep. You're not completely aware until infinity war just what this dude is capable of. You mean he's not the great and powerful Oz right. Yeah, yeah. A lot of movies seem to be lifting from that concept of like I need a vessel, a child, just just, just like he's, like I have an idea, wait, let's do this.

Speaker 2: 27:57

So like this movie and again I watch it. I don't understand.

Speaker 1: 28:07

I understand what people are like, at least, but like RoboCop, oh Okay, and so that's just me but I can understand what people like RoboCop want me to do.

Speaker 2: 28:20

Well, yeah, but like Bill Murray had played on script your eyes.

Speaker 1: 28:33

Okay, but they're good at scripting. I mean, listen, it's a sequel, that's the. That's the sin of franchises and cinema. You make that first one there's, you have a limited budget, nobody believes you anyway, so they're going to let the, let it fly and do what you want to do. And then the sequel happens and it's like well, now we have money and investments and toy lines and stuff involved, so we need to approve of these. Oh okay, yeah, right, right, right, oh yeah, well, he's he. They're on college campus and Bill Murray is literally trying to seduce college girls. Like there's time, there's a line literally says yes, sir, he has no dick. Like I'm pretty sure you just you just show up and make a video of Murray and if they give you a script, you can throw it away. Throw it away.

Speaker 2: 29:47

Yeah, oh, 100%, which I think is interesting. I would write this plane again, the ship to the Titanic. Yeah, essentially, if you made this movie in 2007, it would start Right, yeah, well, that's.

Speaker 1: 30:00

The thing about 80s is that we went from the 70s, which was very much the auteur, the director focus kind of thing, to suddenly Star Wars hit and everybody went wait, we can make a lot of money off this. And by the time two comes out like there's a machine in place, wheels are moving, batman has action figures, you know all these different worlds, and like we're selling toys and stuff now. Yeah, yeah, well, there's also, if you think about Temple of Doom and Gremlins and that we also the restructuring of the rating system to PG 13, also probably had a hand to play in that as well. But yeah, it's pretty much. What you're saying is that there was a shift, enough of a shift, and the focus more about at where we're at now, 100% of like let's get as much demographic, what's going to make us the most money we need to cater to the kids now, because the TV show is running versus the first one, which I feel like has that rough and loose kind of feel. It's still very much a comedy, it's in the vein of those late 70s, early 80s SNL type of projects, but it just happens to involve ghost and crazy things, you know, okay, I'm ready. Bobby Brown's on your other topic. Yeah, oh, come on.

Speaker 2: 31:29

Oh, come on, are you?

Speaker 1: 31:33

Who are you going to call, corey, when there's something strange in your neighborhood? Who do you call? I will agree that it's more enjoyable to listen to, but Ghostbusters, the theme is an earworm. Corey, that's all he needed. Corey, he made some. He dropped the ball there, corey, he dropped the ball. I see we're using LeBron rules now. That's fine. That's fine. I do think the theme song. I will agree that I enjoy listening to it more. But you start the theme of Ghostbusters and everyone knows what it is. Yeah, it's iconic, whereas the second one, it's just like oh yeah, I think that's the. It's just a good song. It's a good song. It's clearly not a great song because it didn't hit the top 100s like Ghostbusters did. We don't know that for sure. I'm just going off of what I know, corey, what I feel is true, a feeling he's going to blow out the Google machine. So compare, compare and contrast Corey Ray Parker Jr, ghostbusters versus Bobby Browns. What is the name of song? I can see. That's the thing I don't on our own now. Okay, doing some, some lives. Number one on the 2S Billboard, hot waxing. Oh, corey, corey, what we've learned nothing from this, from this podcast? It's like okay.

Speaker 2: 33:16

I don't know how to go for it.

Speaker 1: 33:18

It could be like that's true, that's true, but number two on the billboard, okay, respectable, respectable. But what about Ghostbusters Corey? What about the theme? It is a horror in this video and weird, like they just threw in. They threw in just random cameos and stuff. Like weirdly, as much as like, yeah, as weirdly as much as like that movie wasn't expected to take off like it did. They were definitely trying their best, okay, okay, okay, all right. So so one had one, had the non expectation and grew to popularity. The other one was built off of the project Ghostbusters 2.

Speaker 2: 34:04

So okay, all right.

Speaker 1: 34:05

Respectable, all right, okay, okay. Well, you know I want to enjoy. Yeah, that's true, that's true. Well, I'm sure they made sure not to have that situation again. So let me let me ask you my my take on it is that I think I enjoy the first one more Because it does. It has that kind of loose feeling to it. There isn't as much control going on and you could kind of feel that a little bit with the second one. That it's just because there's an expectation now and I think, like it just feeds into my aesthetic more with the idea of, like the unknown enemy that they're slowly building up to. I do like where the there's a little bit more edge to the comedy and the humor and I think it just fits all those actors better and I think that there's still plenty of really funny moments in the second one. But it's not. I don't can't, off the top of my head, immediately be like, oh yeah, that line, that line, you know it's just. I think it's it's dealing with a giant shadow. I mean it's literally Ghostbusters. The one was not on the same level as, but it was a big deal, like Star Wars was in 77. Like it blew up pretty big, so having to like, match and equal something in popularity like that, especially after five years, I'm sure is tough enough as it is. What are you looking at over there? Ok, taking, taking it all in. I feel like my ex might. I think, after rewatching it for our episode, that it's not as bad as I thought it was and that there's more of a respect for it. But I still lean. I still like the first one better. What do you think? What do you think separates it from the first one? I think that like yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 36:16

More fun.

Speaker 1: 36:18

OK, yeah, but he is who he is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, we're the Buffalo room, not great.

Speaker 2: 36:54

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 36:57

Yeah, I think that's. I think I see what you're saying and I think it's. It's leaning into what we've talked about with each movie, where the first one you're getting a little off the rails. It's obviously peak Bill Murray in that era because, like you're saying, like you, for every caddy shack there's where the Buffalo room, like there's a very up and down kind of career projectory. It's not like he's just nailing everything. You do have stuff like stripes and meatballs and stuff like that, but he's it's the razor's edge scene and the popularity of it definitely took him down a peg. It seems like you do get him as like a cameo and some stuff like little shop of Horrors, which is a great scene with him and Steve Martin, peak Murray and like two powers like coming together and it's so good like the build up to it. But yeah, once once Scrooge shits. I think you're right. It's a new era of him where he's accepted his role, I guess, in society a little bit.

Speaker 2: 37:56

I think I'm glad to see Martin always yeah. He's done, yeah.

Speaker 1: 38:06

He plays Benjy yeah.

Speaker 2: 38:10

And so like he's a virtuoso, he's alive and so like, but like I feel like Steve Martin I think that's Bill Murray is there.

Speaker 1: 38:24

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 38:26

Because I think he's career is like a lot of which is like starts off on the street. It's a part of home, yeah.

Speaker 1: 38:35

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 38:36

And, like most of those guys, they like Right Right.

Speaker 1: 38:43

Right and.

Speaker 2: 38:47

I think Uber is a movie and you're forced to so.

Speaker 1: 38:52

I have to be funny yeah.

Speaker 2: 38:54

Because I'm on that. Yeah and so Right. But then what do you want?

Speaker 1: 39:04

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 39:05

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 39:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 39:16

Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

Speaker 1: 39:24

Yeah, that's why that's. I think that's why it works, because it leans into reality a little bit, not not too meta, like yeah, we're going to use use real life to kind of help tell this story. Hey, there's a thing and people want us again.

Speaker 2: 39:36

You know somebody that's like. You know, not like.

Speaker 1: 39:39

Give it to him. Yeah, yeah, you know I think it's great. No, yeah, it's a better story than the first one. It really. It really does depend on your take on Bill Murray, but yeah, I think he was an actor that was known for comedy, wanting to be taken seriously, and I think that that hit after Razor's Edge made him realize like OK, I know what I am and I'm going to lean into that, but again, the story is great. Yeah, yeah, well, like I mean yeah, just take, I mean Scrooge. He has plenty of moments there, but especially Groundhog Day, like there's so many dramatic moments that he has to pull off in that movie. Like it's good, it's great stuff, like you said, like he has these smaller moments, and really it's once he gets in with Anderson that you start to really see like there's more layers going on with him, you know. And I always wonder, though, because Robin Williams is the type of person that's always like, yeah, did he ever do an SNL?

Speaker 2: 40:39

OK, but like he doesn't get loved in with you. And he always wondered, guys, did a guy like Robin Williams? Actually that's the kind of guy that's like.

Speaker 1: 41:02

Well, I think that's the gift in the curse, too, of SNL is that like, yes, he was on more community and stuff, but that wasn't what defined him. He started doing movies and stuff and I get before more community became the thing that defined him, whereas everybody's like, well, he's the funny guy because they also went straight into comedies, stripes and all that stuff. Yeah, with Robin Williams is like, yeah, I was working, mindy, but I'm going to go over here and do, yeah, goodwill hunting. I'm going to go over here and do Good Morning Vietnam.

Speaker 2: 41:26

Yeah, but it makes you wonder that I've read this book essentially about this huge type of escape and trying to escape on the funny, yeah, and then, like Robin Williams, happens to, be like. I think he's like. He's kind of like yeah, you wonder if you're like.

Speaker 1: 41:52

I think that's kind of the curse of Hollywood, though. It's like once you get pegged into a certain corner, you're yeah, you have to fight it, and not many people are successful at it. And some people accept that role and go I know, I'm on Wilson. And then some people sit there and go like, well, I know that I, I'm Mark Strong, I'm going to play the bad guy every time and I'm going to get it because I get work.

Speaker 2: 42:13

But again, that's why I like to, and it can, it can, it can be the main resource.

Speaker 1: 42:25

Well, in the first one he definitely doesn't have much of an arc at all, it's just. He's just the funny guy. He's the one with the lines and stuff. He's he other than him and Ernie Hudson ground the team like like in the scene. When they go back to the mayor they're all speaking mumbo jumbo and Ernie's the one that's very relatable. He's the warm natured one of the group and Bill's the one that's fighting off the, the schmuck that works for the mayor and stuff. So so he rides that weird line where he sometimes is the one that's relatable, but he's really just like the player, funny, quippy guy. Well, he takes it seriously. Yeah, yeah, we need a fourth guy. Well, it's supposed to be Eddie Murphy, and so they got Ernie. Do you think? Do you think it's bigger with Eddie Murphy in it? True? Well, I think they shifted some lines around once Ernie got brought on. You're right. No, you need it because you have, because with with the other guys. Yeah, well, you have. You have two science guys with Acroyd and and Harold Ramis, and then with Bill Murray, you have the wisecracking guys. It's like Marvel's problem. Just, I don't know. We'd have to look at the wiki here. I mean he? No, he is Peter Bankman PhD.

Speaker 2: 43:48

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 43:48

Yeah, listen, it's just a cast. This is just a cast list. That was on. That I pulled up, all right, but no, you do. You do need that groundless. It's the Marvel problem. Like all the characters are Bill Murray's now.

Speaker 2: 44:01

Just wrapping, I think maybe that is this yeah? This goes into a verse Hmm, and then he gets to Western, and I think it's the same thing with Jim Carrey. Jim Carrey started trying to like get away from.

Speaker 1: 44:21

Yeah, he had to let one movie bomb, which was the majestic, yeah, but like, even if people appreciated it, it was a perfect, no, probably not. And it's just like now you're like that's perfect, yeah, and it's like all of a sudden like right, mm, hmm, eternal sunshine. Eternal sunshine is spotless mind, and I think Bill Murray did it.

Speaker 2: 44:46

It's just like it's weird. I mean I said I almost have to suffer.

Speaker 1: 44:52

You have to train your audience. Yeah, which I'm reading like this, this little book about Bill Murray it's it's called the Tau of Bill Murray and it's just talking about just how he functions in society, where he just comes and goes pretty much as he pleases because, but and like he just plays with celebrity, like he's aware of it enough. He's like I know what I can get away with and what I can't get away with, and he never uses it in a maniacal or evil way, like it's always, just like I'm going to give, give this person a memory they're not going to forget, or something like that it's like it's kind of wild. Yeah, bill Murray's entire life outside of movies is just completing side quest.

Speaker 2: 45:41

It's performance art, yeah, so I think that that's why it's still Hmm.

Speaker 1: 45:54

Okay, yeah, cause it could have bombed. Yeah, yeah, I don't know if it did well for sure, yeah, but this was like a great fact. It did respectable 32 million budget, 100 million box office, so like I think that's probably.

Speaker 2: 46:20

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

Speaker 1: 46:34

Yeah, yeah. So I feel like the lesson we've learned is that your stance on Bill Murray really depends on how you like your Bill Murray. Do you like him unhinged a bit or do you like him a little more? A little more world traveled and more. I enjoy Wes Anderson. Bill Murray, yeah, I think he's great. Yeah, yeah, I think he's a great teacher, for sure. You add that on top of like lost, I feel like lost in translation as well was definitely one way. Oh wait, bill Murray is serious. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 47:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

Speaker 1: 47:22

I agree. Yeah, it's one of those where it's one of those like had this not been Ghostbusters, and you have like these scores that are up on it. It makes most people go, oh, that's not good. Which is stupid, because now, most of the time when I see a movie has like scores like that, I'm almost like more interested to watch it, because it's not like this universally praised thing. It's like, okay, some people get it and some people don't get it.

Speaker 2: 47:49

No, I think that's why a lot of people think that the question is how to make it seem like it's not good, it's like almost where the idea is oh, it's like it's so bogus because it's like he is that.

Speaker 1: 48:21

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 48:45

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 49:12

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 49:29

For sure.

Speaker 1: 49:31

Yeah, 100%.

Speaker 2: 49:36

Yeah.